Jotham Busfield: Prioritizing Mental Health in Web 3.0 without it Being About Mental Health | Episode 159


Jotham Busfield: Prioritizing Mental Health in Web 3.0 without it Being About Mental Health

Apr 19, 2022 | Fanzo Favorite, Interview, Podcast

Jotham Busfield is today’s guest and we met as we are both passionate about the Psychedelics Anonymous NFT project.

Jotham’s experience as a Mental Health professional combined with being an active web 3.0  contributor was a no-brainer to have him on the podcast. 

You see people not only connecting in the NFT space, or the web3 space, but they're connecting in a very specific way. They're combining community with purpose, and fandom. - Jotham Busfield, Guest, NFT 365 Podcast

We discuss a wide-range of topics including:  – The state of Mental Health in 2022

– Web 3.0 trends and conversations around Mental Health

– Should NFT projects have mental health channels

– What does it mean to create a safe space?

– What we can do to avoid making things worse as non-professionals in mental health

– How long before mental health professionals adopt to web 3.0

– What are some of the things we can do as advocates and alias in mental health

– What about Psychedelics Anonymous makes it a unique and stand out NFT project

– The metaverse and mental health where is the overlap and where is the wishful thinking?

I feel this conversation is vital to have an one of the biggest takeaways was even as a professional in this space Jotham stressed the importance of not falling for the false belief that web 3.0 is the technology to drive mental health change rather what web 3.0 enables should help facilitate and open up more mental health conversations. 

Those interested in learning more about PA:

Check out Jotham’s podcast and practice: and 

About our guest: Jotham Busfield Jotham Busfield is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker with offices in Newton, Lexington, and Concord, Massachusetts. His practice focuses on supporting young men between the ages of 8 and 25 as they navigate a range of challenges, including anxiety and depression. During this formative time when many individuals may struggle with self-esteem, identity, and relationships, Jotham is passionate about empowering his clients to lead their lives with confidence and feel more connected to themselves and their peers.

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Kevin Sturmer 0:00
You’re listening to NFT 365. The first daily podcast on NFT is with your host Fanzo, talking crypto, blockchain, web 3, non-fungible tokens, metaverse, and

What the f*ck is a non-fungible token?

We’ll get to that. It’s time for today’s episode of NFT 365. The only daily NFT podcast minting an NF T every day for 365 days. Powered by the ADHD coin at Here’s your host and digital futurist, the ADHD superpowered to Brian Fanzo.

This show is not financial advice. So, do your own damn research.

Brian Fanzo 0:42

Welcome back to another episode of NFT 365. You know, we are we are pushing past and getting closer to the halfway mark of the project halfway mark, not only buying an NFT every day, but halfway mark of 365. Around the podcast and you know, there’s, it’s been a lot of fun, even over the last like 72-48 hours, I got to fly to an event in Tampa and, you know, talk to some people in, in real life IRL, that we’re not actually, you know, NFT or web three people, they are actually part of the National Speakers Association, and had some amazing conversations around, you know, really what utility of NFT’s are outside of a lot of what we see today in the sense of like business use cases and those that are authors and how they can think about NFT’s in their books and, and those that are, you know, speakers that also have a small business or those that have a membership community. And I’ll say like the one of the things that excites me the most about where we kind of are in this space, and kind of some of the things we have moving forward is that we have so many different opportunities that the beauty I look at in NFTs as a whole is that, you know, the fact that we can ultimately look at NFT’s and say, you know, there is no one way or one right way to do NF TS is like a beautiful thing. But the reason that NFT’s can feel overwhelming, feels a little bit chaotic sometimes feels a little bit like it spreads us thin and there’s a lot going on is because well, the same concept that there are so many different ways that this can go and there is one common thread there is one common thread across this entire space really no matter what you’re doing. And web3 and NFTs is the idea of how do we continue to be the best we can be continue to learn continue to lean in to contribute continue to really grow as humans and and I believe that starts and ends with us making our mental health a priority. And it’s something that I’ve talked about a lot here on the podcast, anyone that’s followed me for the last five years or so I finally like stepped in to understanding that kind of what my role is in the mental health conversation. But I also am very quick to say that I am not a professional and I did not have degrees or background in this space. But I’ve been very blessed to surround myself with those that are professionals in this space, they can help guide me help mentor me helps shape even some of my own views. And in some cases keeping you know, keep me on the on the right rails and saying hey, how you’re bringing these conversations to life is important. And so today’s guest I’m super excited that Jonathan is joining us and he is just one of those professionals that not only is a professional in the mental health space, but he is someone that is you know, fully in on web three on NFTs, and really, you know, extremely active in a couple of the communities that I’m very much a part of. And we’ve become fast friends in in many different ways. And I think there’s a beautiful aspect here of how do we bring and rethink mental health in the in the metaverse and in web three, but also, like we still have to have a conversation around mental health as a whole. There’s a lot of people that really is aren’t having that conversation still alive. So Jotham, thanks so much for joining the podcast. Thanks for you know, all that you’ve already provided. I’m excited for our audience to get to know you a little bit better. Give us a little bit about your background. And then we’ll kind of tap into like the web three NFT side. But give us a little bit about your background and who you are.

Jotham Busfield 4:11
Sure, yeah, thanks for having me on the on the podcast fans though. Obviously, I’m a huge fan of the podcast, huge fan of view, but personally a huge fan of NFT 365. And the whole discord community, a lot of great people in there. So I’m excited for this opportunity to come in here on here and talk to you guys about some of this stuff. My background is is kind of unique. So I live in Massachusetts, grew up around this area, went to architecture school, got a degree in that field work in the field for two years decided I was gonna be very unhappy doing it. Still a hobby of mine so something I’d love to learn about but just, you know, notice there’s a difference between hobby and career, switch careers decided to start volunteering and got into the mental health realm of things. So I went back to grad school got my MSW which is a master’s in social work and became an LIC SW, which is stands for licensed independent clinical social worker, which is just one of probably four or five I have different degree tracks and licensure tracks you can use to be a mental health professional. I then started my first company in 2013. And that was basically, my initial company was was more focused on coaching. And then that inevitably kind of led to 2019, where I started riser and trend with a colleague of mine, John Kuna, who I’ve known since about 2015, and riser and tribe, we’re about 20 clinicians, we built up just in three years to about 20 clinicians. And we focused on youth male mental health, mostly working with young guys who are anywhere from, you know, eight to 25 year old, years old and age. And that’s sort of our focus, we overlap therapy and coaching. We think that that coaching overlap with therapy works really well for young guys, in particular, I think young guys kind of have a, you know, an expectation of what they think therapy, quote unquote, is when they come in. And because our vibe is much more than a coach, I think it allows us to connect with young guys and get on their level, and speak their language in a way where we can explain and discuss difficult mental health topics without sounding jargony or without the power dynamic feeling sort of unbalanced, not in their favor in a way that might make them kind of go in the other direction. So that’s, that’s kind of the main focus of our business in during the pandemic, we started the Grim Drive podcast, which was mainly us trying to look for a creative way just to connect with more people and give them free information that we thought would be helpful. So we did that, in a way where our focus was on teaching about mental health through the lens of sports and pro sports and athletes, especially for a lot of young guys, that’s an easier way to learn about some of this stuff. One, because they look up to some of these athletes and athletes were speaking out about mental health much more. So it sort of lends itself nicely to us doing that. But also, it’s an easier first step for people to hear about someone else’s experience with mental health, and maybe feel a bond there. Instead of having to beat their first step beat them actually talking about what they’re going through. So that’s been great. So far, we’ve done about, so we’re in the year two, I think we’re about around the 52 episode mark, which we’re pretty proud of it’s sure, you know, preaching to the choir here, way more work than I ever thought a podcast is basically like its own business. And that’s if you do it once a week. So obviously, that was one of the things when I first came across you Fanzo, I was like, This guy is doing a daily podcast, I couldn’t believe it, started listening to it. And you know, kind of rest is history.

Brian Fanzo 7:19
Well, I mean, I’m excited to tap into a lot of that those pieces that you kind of brought up on, I think it’s so important, you know, for those that are listening, like part of the reason that I integrate a lot of the Mental Health things in within episodes, not just even episodes that are only titled mental health is, I think of myself and I think of myself five years ago, even, you know, I was diagnosed ADHD, I’ve told that story many times, but that day changed my life. Like I mean, I Well, there’s not many days in my, like my background where I say my life changed. And it was the day I was diagnosed ADHD. And it wasn’t because I was medicated. It wasn’t because all of a sudden, I like I saw the light. But it was like this, like permission to recognize that I my brain just works differently. But it was also my permission to realize that the mental side for me, growing up just honestly was never discussed. I was at my parents actually for Easter this weekend. And I was having this conversation with my mom and dad and I was we were sitting around and they were like, they were very, like, excited and proud of what the discussion is. But I was asking my mom about like, you know, back in the day, like, what were the what was the discussions? I was born in? 81. Right? Like, what were the discussions around when I was diagnosed and, and she was telling me like, they would go into teachers, and tell the teachers like, do you think Brian has like ADHD? Like, you know, like, we know, he’s struggling the grades, and they would say things like, No, he is so happy. So involved, he loves everyone around them, it’d be impossible for him to have it. Kids that have it looked like this, right? My mom even said like, she had like a mental visual, until really, I was 31 years old whenever I came out and you know, told my mom that I was diagnosed, and it took a couple of years before I shared it publicly. And you know, it’s such an interesting shift. And I think, especially for you know, and you mentioned men, you know, males that are, you know, from a standpoint of when someone would tell me something like therapy, and they were like, you’re gonna go lay on the couch and talk to somebody like that vulnerability to me with like, a stranger is like hell no, like, like, like, oh, like, and and this is someone that’s like, you know, I’m very open and transparent, like, let alone those that aren’t. So I’m curious. You know, you mentioned you quickly have grown your practice, you also have the podcast side, what would you say is some of the driving factors that have helped open up the mental health dialogue that we see across the culture? Now we know it’s not where we would love for it to be. But it’s definitely I feel, especially in the last five years or so, completely come to the fore light forefront. I credit a little bit to Gen Z. But I’m curious for you, from your standpoint, where are you seeing kind of like the driving force for this conversation? That’s shifting and then maybe what are the some of the things that we know are still like massive roadblocks?

Jotham Busfield 9:57
Yeah, it’s a great question. I definitely give credit to the younger generations, I feel like they have kind of led the way in some ways, it’s about being able to show vulnerability, being willing to discuss mental health, being willing to put themselves out there and prioritize theirs and the concept of mental health altogether. I think that’s a great thing. So that’s definitely part of what’s driving it. I think the stigma was reducing gradually, I think having important people in important places, especially like athletes, like we’ve covered on the podcast, speaking out about that, particularly like, you know, males in positions of power, I think talking about that help, especially young guys, right? I think so that might not I don’t want to give credit to, you know, males in positions of power, in terms of driving the mental health conversation across the board for everybody. But for young guys who look up to them, I think it’s certainly been beneficial because they see a LeBron James, or they see another athlete kind of talking about mindfulness or talking about their mental health struggle. And it immediately gives them sort of, you know, permission, I think, to be open about their own mental health and about being, you know, talking about that. So it’s been gradual, I think, I think the pandemic played a massive role. I think over the last two or three years, it’s just forced people to confront mental health as a reality and their own mental health, either because they’re seeing what’s happening to everyone around them, or most likely, it’s probably happening to them. On some level, too, I think the pandemic was, you know, kind of equal parts, fear and adjustment, and for some loss, and a lot of these other things that go into, you know, impacting people’s mental health on a small scale or on a large scale. And so I think it hit everybody in some kind of way. And I think the combination of more people speaking out, and the pandemic, definitely kind of fused to be like, alright, we have to take this seriously. So in some ways, it’s great, because it’s like, the stigma has reduced, which is fantastic. The awareness has gone up, which is fantastic. And yet, what it’s done is I think it’s it’s shined a very bright light on some holes in our field, in terms of the mental health field, I think there was some of these holes existing already. Now they’re just being exploited. And you can see them much more in a much clearer light than maybe people did before. And so that kind of relates to the roadblock, question that second part that you would ask where I think there’s a lot of issues, current issues in the mental health field that we’re up against, right? There’s not enough clinicians period. There’s not enough really skilled clinicians who have expertise in specific areas, which is related to the not enough in general, but also its own kind of thing. I mean, like we need, we just need bodies, we need more people to do this work. But we also need more people who are really good at it. There’s a lot of bad therapists out there a lot of bad mental health clinicians. And so Access to care is important. But you also want to get access to good care, because those are two kind of separate things. The insurance landscape is beyond broken. That’s, I don’t know that I don’t have a solution for that, necessarily, but it’s definitely not working. And I don’t think it’s going to work anytime soon. For a lot of different reasons, which is probably its own podcast episode, I think the cost of care is a huge barrier. There’s basically three tiers, there’s private practice, there’s so clinicians who are in private practice in our private pay, there’s clinicians who take insurance, and then there’s clinicians who work for like a better help, or talkspace, or things like that. And that that sort of those three tiers go down in price, they also go down and quality of the care you’re getting, unfortunately. And that’s just based on the economic landscape. And the fact that, you know, the mental health field is part of a capitalist kind of society. And I don’t know that that’s the best fit. I don’t think capitalism and mental healthcare really fit all that well together. But it kind of is what it is. And so I think what happens is, you know, that the lower tiers, when you’re getting more access to care, the quality of the care is probably not likely going to be as good because it doesn’t pay as well, not nearly as well, you know, the people who work for a talkspace or, or something like that are not going to get paid nearly as much as the people who contract with insurance and have their own private practice. And they’re not going to make as much as the people who have their private practice in our private pay. And all the best people in our field, do not contract with insurance, they just don’t mean even at our company, we don’t contract with insurance. So the way we do it is we kind of sandwich the things on either side, we offer private pay, but we try to keep our prices probably about 20% below market averages. And then we offer pro bono free stuff, we bring on insurance, we pay our interns, and we get them to do free youth mentoring, even though we pay them so they don’t bring in any money for the company. But they bring value to our company because they can offer free services to people in need that can’t get connect connected to care. So those are some some of the roadblocks. I’ll cover a couple other ones real quick because I don’t want to go too far. But there’s interstate red tape. So if you’re licensed in Massachusetts, you can’t necessarily do therapy in another state unless you get reciprocity there. Massive issue because the 50 states don’t talk. There’s the individualistic culture, especially in the US that I think is a huge barrier. There’s a loneliness, epidemic. Trauma is pretty much everywhere, right? And then there’s clinician resistance to technology. I think like I’ve heard a lot of people talk about these ideas about getting mental health clinicians into web3. And like I kind of laugh because I know mental health clinicians and they’re like the the last people that are going to be adopting this space, you know, And they’re just very, they’re very averse to risk. They’re very averse to change, and they’re averse to tech. And so those three things make it very hard to get clinicians in this space. So that’s a lot.

Brian Fanzo 15:10
Well, yeah, and I think a lot of that, too, is like is based on our past on how the the tech comes in. And then like how we protect you, you were talking about, like, the interstate regulations, you get a zoom call with a, you know, a physician that you relate with and connect with shouldn’t have the those kinds of like, you know, regulatory regulations or limitations. And I love that you broke broke that down because I think there’s also I’m curious, you know, for from my standpoint, like the view of like, when Simone Biles, you know, stood up as a, you know, one of the most powerful and important athletes in you know, in Olympics and even far beyond that. And just you stayed committed to the fact that like her mental health was what she was prioritizing. It actually in the weirdest way. For me, I was excited as it was happening like I was champing her, I still am. But I was actually surprised. There were a lot of people that were the ones that were talking about, like, let’s create safe spaces, mental health should be more of a conversation that we’re then like burying her like, I don’t know, if that’s true that she really have it, I can’t see it. And you’re like, I’m like, wait a second, like we’ve we’ve been talking about the fact that this is not just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t like adversely affecting. And then the other side of that is, like you mentioned about like talkspace. And some of these the apps, like I actually in the weirdest way, those looked those felt to me much more comfortable as an entry point than the the extreme other. But coming in on that entry point and having, let’s just say a less than, you know, great experience or something that like continues, you inspired it almost kind of like is like, Well, I tried it and check that box. And so I’m curious like your because I think that kind of connects into where we’re going with three because I think it’s essential for us to understand the responsibility that we carry. When we have these conversations I learned a lot in the pandemic, or in, especially like around clubhouse in, like, what does it mean to criticize safe space for conversations, but also carry the burden of saying that, like, you have to understand trigger warnings. And you have to understand protecting not only the people that are asking questions, but those that are in audience and like, I will say like I think for me as a as a leader. We changed my life, it changed my life in a way that I got to learn all of these things that sometimes I would save things on stages that I felt was like me being an advocate. And really in a way, I was being kind of irresponsible with that like that, that power. So I’m curious, like your, your opinion kind of in, you know, you mentioned the pandemic being a benefit in many ways. But how do we how do we kind of also take a step back and say, as much as we’re moving forward, there’s places where I kind of feel like we’re vanity moving forward and not really moving forward? Because either we’re not picking up an understanding or those entry points are still broken? How do you kind of look at that whole? That whole kind of concept?

Jotham Busfield 17:59
Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say the, you know, it’s hard, I think it’s often easy for us to like view things in very black and white terms, like either this approach worked, or this approach didn’t work, versus maybe some parts of it did, and some parts of it didn’t. And that can even help with a conversation, like you had described on like a on a clubhouse, you know, talk or Twitter spaces where, you know, let’s say there’s 60 people in the audience, and one ends up, you know, maybe, you know, exposing some of their own trauma or talking about something like, like maybe that could impact a couple people. And yet 57 of the 60 may have actually gained a benefit from it in different ways. It’s hard to tell, it’s hard to know that like one thing is always going to help everybody or hurt everybody. Usually, it’s a bit of a mix of things, I think all you can do is try to balance those types of conversations so that you’re pretty clear about the things that need to be considered by everyone attending without being too, you know, I think people especially mental health clinicians tend to be so driven by the fear of being sued, that I think it leads to, I think it bleeds into our conversations a little bit too much where there’s like a million disclaimers, and there’s all these different things. And if you, if you God forbid, ever leave a voicemail on a therapist phone, if anyone anyone’s ever done this, they’ll probably see that it takes about five minutes to get to the point where you actually leave a voicemail, because there’s a five minute diatribe about, you know, if you’re an emergency do this, and if, and it’s all because they don’t want to be sued by anybody. And I think that that fear I don’t I kind of think it does a disservice to people a lot of times because it ends up becoming a barrier in and of itself. But I love the fact that you’re willing. But you mentioned this earlier, the fact that you have kind of shifted into your own role in the mental health realm of things in terms of how you talk about stuff. I love that I tell I told you that offline too, is that I think we need more people like you who have, you know, a lot of intelligence, a lot of drive a lot to offer in terms of skill sets, and they have their own personal and general understanding of mental health concepts. I think, first of all, mental health clinicians I think, lack creativity from a business sense. So that’s a huge roadblock to me answer just solving difficult mental health issues, because they’re not going to be thinking through that creative entrepreneurial lens. So we need other people that do have that, and have an understanding of mental health, to use their skills to bring it into this kind of landscape, I think that’s going to push conversations further. And actually think not having a license is a bit of an advantage. You know, I do think that in some ways, because you work long enough in the mental health field, you know, people deal with burnout, they get sort of shaped and shifted by some of the bad habits that have formed in our field over time. And so I think it’s almost an advantage for some people that have a skill set that lends itself to, you know, talking to people about mental health, but aren’t necessarily mental health clinician, you know, you know,

Brian Fanzo 20:41
what’s funny about that is like, the cybersecurity world is so similar in the sense of, like, the culture has created so many like being afraid of like, this isn’t financial advice, this isn’t like you don’t, same thing. And like, and like when I left, I feel like I am a much better like an advocate and like teacher of cybersecurity, because I like pulled myself out and was like, Hey, I understand that there’s all these other things. And like, if I’m giving this recommendation, like, I’m not mentioning their password manager, and like they they usually like a big I remember people like, you can’t see this advice without giving that and I’m like, what if I at least get them to do one thing, one thing is better than no things at all. I’m being overwhelmed. And I also say like, you reached out personally, and we we’ve had a couple conversations, and you kind of giving me and I give a shout out to Nidhi Tewari, who is a dear friend of mine, as well, and, and we’ll probably have on the podcast very soon. And actually, there’s some other amazing leaders that I’m very blessed to have friends with that are in the NFT. And also in web three space that have that reach out to me and say, Brian, I love the way you’re talking about this or like keep up, keep doing what you’re doing. I will also say from like, from my side, there’s not enough professionals that are willing to do that, for those of us that are unsure of like, if we found our role, and I’m blessed, like I found those that are willing to tell me that to where I am comfortable bringing these conversations to life. But I know others that have like brought it to life, and then kind of getting that weird, that weird permission. So I love that you kind of like address that. And I think there is I do have you I will oftentimes, listen, I’ve listened into spaces that you’ve been leading. And I will listen to like, what are you not able to say? Or what are some of the things that you have to omit? And I’ll kind of take that home as my like soapbox, like, Okay, I know like I can find that in there. And that’s where I mentioned before finding my lane. I’m curious, let’s lean into like the web3 and NFT side, you’re one of my takes on this and I’m curious your take of it and you can we can lead to wherever it needs to go. You know, we both are in Psychedelics Anonymous, it’s a it’s an NFT project, the both of us are very passionate about it, just amazing community, that that community and even from those like from coming in from the outside, there’s definitely an element of mental health, mental wellness, that whole kind of integrated into it. But it wasn’t like kind of in your face. And it really hasn’t been like in your face. But I’ve actually taken like someone asked me this weekend about like, Where would I look at it from like a big mental health, like taking a bigger role in an empty space. And I made the comment and I’ll let you tend to jump on this as I was like, actually, rather than mental health having individual NFT’s like I would rather mental health experts being tied to multiple NFT projects to be able to shed their light in that way rather than it being all on one. What is your take kind of on like that, like roll because as you said, risk adverse but also tech adverse. But also, let’s face it, the onboarding for web3, it’s we all like to say we’re early, but because we’re early, it’s a hot mess. Like it’s a hot mess for onboarding. So I don’t blame a lot of people for not getting in. How do you look at it as like kind of the place that we could probably move the needle the most when it comes to integrating mental health professionals into this web3 NFT space?

Jotham Busfield 23:41
That’s a great question. Yeah. In terms of integrating so this is where I think I wouldn’t I don’t know if I want to go as far as say I pumped the brakes on the mental health web three ft overlap. But I would say I’m approaching with a little bit of like, caution in terms of, you know, what my hopes or expectations, I try to not have expectations period because I think it’s those are dangerous. But what my hopes are for the overlap between you know, mental health and web three or NFT’s is I’m trying to be like realistic about it. Because I think just because you know, the the web3 or NFT landscape is so open and it’s and it’s it gives people hope that we can create anything I think that’s what’s amazing about it’s one thing I love about it doesn’t necessarily mean that a web3, there’s going to be a web three solution to the mental health roadblocks that exist right. To me, I think there are other non web3 solutions that have to happen first, and then web3 and the tech use can then amplify something I think you have heard you’ve talked about how technology is at its best when it’s sort of eating something else right when it’s like able to take something that’s that’s maybe good and amplify how great it is not create the goodness from the beginning. Right. I think that’s how I look at mental health because web3 I don’t think I’m still open minded. I’m still optimistic. I’m hopeful to keep learning about this and hear other people talk about maybe how there could be a solution. But I don’t know that web3 can fix not enough clinicians being existing. I don’t know that web3 can fix not enough skilled clinicians existing in the mental health field. I don’t know that web3 can fix the insurance landscape. And the reality of that, or the interstate red tape. I don’t know. I think what I’ve seen that I’m most bullish about in terms of how web3 or NFT’s overlap with mental health has nothing to do with mental health professionals. I think it has everything to do with the fact that people aren’t connecting. I think loneliness is such a huge epidemic that people don’t talk about enough that I think the fact that you see people not only connecting in the NFT space, or the web3 space, but they’re kind of connecting in a very specific way. They’re kind of combining like community with purpose. And fandom, like those three things are kind of all wrapped up into one which I’ve never seen exist anywhere else, because especially because of fandom, you know, with sports teams, and you’re a huge sports fan. My voice is also half gone. So I was at the Celtics last night, by the way, a lot

Brian Fanzo 25:54
What a game Oh, my goodness,

Jotham Busfield 25:56
Best NBA game I’ve ever seen in person hands down.

Brian Fanzo 25:59
You were there? Like I mean, watching, it was one of the best watching games ever. So I mean, that’s awesome.

Jotham Busfield 26:05
Yes, totally in shock. So, you know, with fandom, there’s some great aspects. But there’s also, you know, there’s also some kind of risks and some stuff that goes too far, particularly with male fans, you know, they, they take it too seriously. And they get territorial and all these other things, I don’t think I see those negative aspects of fandom nearly as much in the NFT space as I do, and like the general sports kind of fandom space. So I think the fact that people are connecting, and they have these common bonds, and they have this community and this shared purpose and the fandom really helps. Like I didn’t know that coming in. When I first started learning about NFT’s I was like, I started to get sold over time about the whole, you know, digital proof of ownership, combined with the fact that artists are finally being recognized, to do great work, instead of having to be paid nothing. Those two things alone were like, Finally, when I started to learn about blew my mind, I did not expect anything else, I didn’t know much about this landscape, I had no idea what Metamask was all that kind of stuff. That’s why I started listening to your podcast because it helped me with a lot of those things. And then I got into this space. And I learned about discord and I started to interact with people. And the community aspect. I know it is a cliche sometimes and projects tossing around and whatever. But when it’s actually happening in a real way, in a helpful way and authentic way. It’s something I haven’t seen anywhere else. And it’s personally helped me I feel more connected to people than I did, particularly post pandemic and what we just went through. So I guess that that’s to me is like the biggest thing I think that’s going to help people’s mental health has nothing to do with mental health professionals.

Brian Fanzo 27:32
Well, and I love that you brought up you know, there’s, there’s multiple aspects in the sense of like, you know, it’s also like we have to like I always say like, you know, technology isn’t here to solve people problems, right? People solve people’s problems. Exactly. Knology is great at once those problems are solved. We can amplify we can scale we can magnify, but there’s also like the element of actually, I’ll give a shout out to non fungible therapist tweeted out, yeah, he was also yeah, great follow on Twitter, work, because we are recording live on Twitter spaces, tweeted out that there’s like, I mean, there’s nine Twitter spaces going on, like within like, the next couple of hours, all with mental health in the topic, that are all kind of NFT or web3 leaders that are having these spaces. So like, in a weird way, like, it’s not actually like web three, or the NFT’s like there is the sense that, because we’re getting people into some of these areas to have, you know, active conversations with our spaces on Discord. We’re almost like, you know, hey, we got this attention. Now, we can talk about some of these topics. But it’s not necessarily like NFT driven or web three driven, which I love that you brought up. And then there’s also Taylor Berg jumped into our Twitter space. And Taylor, is the growth and content marketing lead at talkspace, and tiller, which is super cool. Like if I think about this from a collaboration perspective, right? Like, you know, Jonathan, when you and I were, we were connecting, we were having this conversation, like me being able to follow you and jump into your Twitter spaces, and listen to how your dialogue is shared, and how you’re bringing some of these things to light, you know, especially with some of the conversations with athletes, like I’m learning how I can bring those conversations better to my NFT community, but to, you know, to the podcast, and I think there’s something really powerful because I don’t know, pre pandemic, the opportunity for us to like learn through like literally sitting in rooms with others that are experts in this field, like I was actually think about this. When we were in clubhouse on a regular basis. I was like, I don’t know if I’ve ever sat like there was no YouTube even, like, even though there were some podcasts like those podcasts always felt like it was like, oh, that’s the mental health podcast. And like, I’ve shared this before, like, I often like identify like, Oh, I’m already working on my mental health. Like, I don’t need to listen to that podcast, but like, I’ll listen to a Brene Brown conversation. And then she’ll go into this amazing conversation around mental health and like, blows my mind. And I’m like, That’s what I needed. And you mentioned like that loneliness factor, right? And I think that is such a piece. Now, I have heard people share that like the metaverse is the answer there, right? Because the metaverse can be that we can kind of have that immersive experience of having people around us. I kind of like, I would love for that believe that is the right way. But like, I’m also questioning like, you know, the loneliness factor is it is about like these connections and I like audio because I think the intimacy of audio is just something that most even you know, that aren’t in our space have haven’t kind of like, figured out to wrap their head around. But I, I do get a little worried in the in the overwhelming sense of like, if we believe like, you know, I’ve jumped into many Metaverse, actually multiple different platforms, multiple different events. And there wasn’t a place that I felt like, there wasn’t a time where I was like, wow, this is this is so immersive that this could be, you know, therapy for me or this could be a step further than like social audio could take us now maybe that it’s because I haven’t we haven’t gotten there yet. But what is your you know, I was Googling today just for the podcast. I was like googling like web three and mental health. And almost all of the news articles are like some connection to the actual Metaverse and like, they show like two pictures of two avatars being like, this is how loneliness is solved. And like, I think a lot of that is like wishful thinking. But like, what is your take on the actual Metaverse conversation and mental health even kind of outside of NFT’s?

Jotham Busfield 31:19
Yeah, I would say I don’t know what the solution is in terms of mental like how you solve mental the big mental health challenges within the metaverse or within web3. But I will say I think the solution is going to be one that’s a little bit disguised or indirect. Right. And you brought up a great example of this being the opposite way, the mental health podcast, right? If a podcast or a project, or even a company, right, this is why we call our company riser and tread and not like, you know, Lexington Therapy Associates or something like that. Like if the concept is being delivered. Like I’ve actually seen you tweet something about this, not about mental health or about something different, where it’s like, or it might have been about mental health, where if you if you’re delivering information about mental health, and it’s too much of a smack you on top of the head with like, hey, mental health, mental health, here’s learn about mental health, I actually think it turns people away. Like I think you need to be able to translate mental health concepts into something that’s a little bit more enjoyable, or more well, you know, more diverse in terms of like the content that you’re creating, or how you’re delivering it. Because if like, let’s say an NFT project is only focused on mental health, I think they’re going to struggle, because I don’t think that that’s enough to get people to come in and actually interact. Because if you just take a step back for a second, like, no one wants to talk about mental health 24/7. Like, even if you’re passionate about it, and even if you want to improve, that it’s not that type of topic, it’s too heavy for that.

Brian Fanzo 32:37
Anyone who’s attempted, like I will just say like, I’ve spent too many hours where it like, not only my energy, but I’ve it’s actually probably one of the things that’s overwhelming a sense that like I felt I almost like felt like violated in my like, my own sense, because I spent so much time taking on like others and like not, not even from a negative perspective, right. But it was like so much. I’m sharing that because like, I could not agree more. And like, before having that experience. It’s like, well, that’s not true. There’s lots of people that like love to talk, but like, I mean, those that I mean, I mean, shout out to all the professionals that are listening this podcast, like those of you that have to live in this and then also go home and do like the family life and the things that you have. I mean, holy hell like just from my one or two experiences and spending so much time in there it is, it is like a burden and like a thing that you kind of take in that is really hard to like, just accept in like in that massive of a dose. So I didn’t mean to cut you off. But I think that’s just such an important piece.

Jotham Busfield 33:34
No, that’s a great point. I think, you know, I do think any project that’s trying to help with mental health needs to be more well rounded than just the mental health if the the marketing and the message and the whole content or concept is like more than 20% mental health, I think they’re going to lose people, I just don’t think it’s enough to sustain. And again, even when mental health is being delivered mental health information, helpful information care, that kind of thing is being delivered in the right way. It’s never taking up that much of a person’s life or their day or their time. It’s just not that’s it’s not meant to be that way. So I think it has to be folded into other things. And you brought up the point about, you know, what it’s like to, you know, have to do this day in and day out as a mental health clinician, it is hard. And I think one thing I’m worried about is the collective burnout of mental health clinicians in our field, because throughout the last three years, they’ve been trying to help other people, but also probably dealing with their own things too. And I’m worried that there’s a tipping point where that’s going to if it hasn’t already, it’s gonna start to this lead to this mass burnout kind of thing. Although some people handle it better than others. You know, I was the example I would give is like, like I could never be a surgeon right? It’s not that like I would faint at the sight of blood but I wouldn’t be just like under control and good to go in a you know, in a surgery room just staring at that kind of stuff all day long. I think it would have a bad impact on me mentally, but surgeons can do it like they just can see it and it’s fine. I’m kind of like that when it comes to mental health care like I’ve always been able, and I think a lot of other clinicians can be like that to where they’re just naturally, maybe a little bit better at being able to hear some really, really difficult things, people’s traumas, people, other things that people have gone through in terms of mental health that are tough to hear day in and day out over and over again in multiple sessions. But they’re able to hear that and still kind of shut that off when they leave, and then go back home. So I think some people can deal with it easier than others. But it does take a toll after a while.

Brian Fanzo 35:25
So I love that you brought that up. And, you know, I will say, for all of our listeners, you know, I think the beauty of this conversation is that, you know, we appreciate you listening, right? I think one of the things that I always want to just challenge our listeners, and especially because we have so many that are in this NFT space is there’s an aspect of us wanting to take what what we learn or the priority of prioritizing mental health and take it back to like our favorite discord, or take it back into our favorite community. I’m curious your thoughts on those that like, when like opening up a channel that’s titled, like, mental health, like for me, and like, my team knows this, like, this was like, I mean, I took a lot on like, even though I’m not like, that’s not my field. Like, I was like, hey, if we’re going to open that, and that’s going to be fair, like, this cannot be like a nice to have a checkmark, like, leave people hanging because, like to me like, there is a tendency, some in some cases to actually do more harm than you couldn’t be good. And that that can be scary. What would be your advice for like those that maybe it’s not like your advice for actually even just for a discord but like, those that you I like to say like I got it took me about four years after diagnosed ADHD, and like wanting to like, immerse myself in like the learning of like, ADHD culture that I realized, oh, wait a second. There’s a whole mental health game here that I haven’t really understood. But like, there’s a lot of people that are like, hey, maybe they have an individual story like mine, or maybe they’re just like, I get it. But I want to be an advocate or an ally, what would be your like, kind of recommendation on people like they can provide value, but not create that kind of that blurred area that could end up being more harmful than good? It’s a great question.

Jotham Busfield 36:58
Just to step back and do like the high level view, I think this kind of relates to mental health as a term being. There’s a lot of people, I’ve noticed this trend where people, especially in my field, are sort of annoyed by the term mental health now. And I think I come from a different perspective on that I think a lot of clinicians would be like, mental health, like, it’s so cliche, and it’s too broad and blah, blah, blah, what I think is like, the fact that it’s annoying people means it’s being said a lot. And to me, I’ll take that any day of the week, because that means it’s actually being talked about, funnily enough by a lot of people like that, to me matters way more than if it’s been saturated to the point where it annoys some people. So I come at it from that angle to start. That being said, a mental health channel. I’m you know, I think the psychedelics anonymous project is one that has intentionally held off on having I think they have a channel, but it’s not hasn’t been opened yet. They haven’t, you know, allowed people to type in their interact in there. And I think that was a smart decision, because I think they’re paying attention to what’s happening some of these other mental health channels, I think it’s one of those things where on the surface, like in theory seems like a good idea. But unless you do it very specifically, I think it can kind of go off the rails a little bit. And similar to the topic we discussed earlier, where you don’t have to call a podcast and mental health podcast, I don’t necessarily think you have to have a channel that’s like mental people are going to, from what I’ve seen, people are bonding in a authentic way in these discord servers in other channels that aren’t labeled mental health, and they’re opening up about the stuff that’s good and bad about their day. So they’re getting that support in other ways without having to like vent in a mental health channel. And then with the risk of the Mental Health channel, like this is why some people are being very cautious with it is that if you’re not moderating it in the right way, and I don’t even know if there is a right way to moderate it, because you can’t, you can’t dictate what people are going to write before they write it. So anytime that’s going to be the case, you can’t necessarily control I guess you could delete messages or that kind of thing. But there’s always the chance for it to become one of those trauma dump kind of things. And that’s just very risky. Because if a person is venting about that stuff, there might be some benefit of them getting it off their chest, but it also may retrigger them and so they could be at risk than other people can see it, who have also been traumatized by similar things, and it can kind of rub off on them or re traumatize them. So I think the Mental Health Channel, I would say, I’m not sold on that yet as a thing. I think if people are going to do it, I have to have maybe that’s where professionals can be in there kind of moderating, or it can be limited in terms of who’s in there when I think a much better way to do it is have have sort of Q and A’s or things like that with mental health professionals that you set up ahead of time. And so the people that do want to get that extra level of questioning or insight from a professional have the opportunity to join that kind of thing. But you know, there’s someone there that can kind of rein things in if they need to, because they know how to do that or when to do that.

Brian Fanzo 39:37
Yeah, and I’ll say that was a lesson that I had learned kind of the hard way in clubhouse, and I was doing a lot of rooms with with Nidhi who was a professional in the space and and it was under the Mental Health Matters, like umbrella and was one of the largest clubs over there and clubhouse. And then I you know, there were a lot of people that were I was like, Oh, I’m gonna start a room on my in my club in my channel and it was a great conversation. But I got to a spot as As you know, an advocate and ally, that I felt started getting uncomfortable, where I was afraid that for the people in the room as well as the and I was blessed as the conversation happening, I texted Anita, who was my, and I was like, I need you in this room, and she came within seconds. And from that day, I made it, like my mission that I’m gonna have my professionals that are at my disposal that can come in, and it wasn’t just like defuse the situation. But to give someone that, you know, they weren’t providing therapeutic help, right? They weren’t, they weren’t kind of going outside what was going on. So there, but she was able to kind of recenter it and say, like, hey, let’s make sure that you aren’t, you know, in a place where you are causing, you know, self harm, or you’re not setting this up. But we can also have to remove this conversation because that that night, like I got off call about, and I was emotional, I was bawling my eyes out. Because like that, that feeling of like that ticking on, like, Hey, I was there creating that same space. And so I love that you kind of brought that up on like mental health, the channel itself and even like these conversations, and I’m curious to on, you know, like the, you’d mentioned, like the mental health the word right, and I, and I hate you’ve heard on the podcast, I can’t stand when we use, like vernacular as like the argument to like, block people out or like, that’s our entire discussion. Like, when we make that early discussion, we’re ruining all this time that we have for people and like, let’s let’s just get over the fact that we might, you know, if it’s mental wellness, or mental health or whatever, as long as these, these words are being thrown out there. I’m curious from a, you know, from the professional side of the house, when we look at like, their involvement in NFT’s and even like, there is the element to be anonymous, right. And I’m curious just from your this docs, undocks conversation, it got a little, it got a little heated in my Discord. And for those that are out there, you definitely want to have a discord I love that we can have, like these open debates, and part of it was like, you know, like, like, there some are, from the vantage point, there is no excuse to be to be doxxed that you shouldn’t be using your first name, last name and have it connected. And you know, and there’s others, like there’s some scenarios, one of the scenarios that came to life for me was actually those that are in the mental health profession, being able to like, enter themselves into the conversations and these discords to assess where they could be best helpful without kind of coming into it and being like, Okay, here’s the, here’s the person with the four letters or the three letters after, after the name, what is your thoughts there? I’m like, for those that are like kind of getting into a project, because I hate feeling like it’s almost like a celebrity or athletes gets in there, right? And they’re like, I want you to put our talk about talk about our project outline. And we want you to wear it on on your NASCAR’s patch and you’re like, hold on a second, like, that’s a human behind there as well. What’s your take on kind of like that kind of integrating? Are you kind of the intersection where professionals in this space can fully immerse themselves without having to feel like that pressure of, of kind of taking on that role as well? Because I think for a lot of professionals, you mentioned their own burnout, like finding an NFT community for mental health professionals that allows them the freedom to be themselves and like connect, I think it’s like a, it’s a beautiful, like, result of this. What’s your what’s your thought on that kind of whole opportunity for professionals out there?

Jotham Busfield 43:12
Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s a very nuanced kind of topic. And I think it’s to some degree, I think it should be individual, you know, personal choice on that kind of thing. Because there are situations where the therapist might want to stay undoxxed so that they can sort of get the lay of the land and sort of observe the landscape, figure out what’s going on before they make their decision on how to be helpful. I mean, I’m definitely doxxed, right I have been from the from the start. But that’s what I did in the beginning was I was I was doxxed the whole time, but I was I was trying to dabble in different projects and learn about stuff. And so some people might not be all that comfortable being doxxed while they’re going through that kind of exploration process, because it can be there’s a little more pressure, right for some people to not be in the wrong project or not make a misstep or say this or that. So I think if people want to stay on docks, because they’re doing that, that’s fine. I think that’s their choice, and they should be allowed to do it. I also think like you mentioned, this is one thing where I wouldn’t say I’m going to do it, but I’d be lying if I wasn’t. If I didn’t say I’d be tempted from time to time to have some other account or have the opportunity to be undocked, because this hasn’t happened to me in the NFT space, believe it or not, which I’m I’m kind of proud of proud for the NFT community. I don’t think people have approached me in the NFT community. Like I’m some therapists, they need to just ask me questions. I’ve never had that, that that happened before. And that’s happened to me in real life. Like this is a thing that happens to therapists were like friends and family, they start to view you as the mental health clinician, not the brother or not the you know, friend or whatever. And that can lead to people you know, not not intentionally monopolizing you from your for your professional qualifications, but unintentionally sort of overusing that a little bit when you’re just trying to be not a therapist. You know, I think that happens to a lot have clinicians in our field. So I can see that happening to some people in this space. It hasn’t happened to me personally. But I also wouldn’t wouldn’t blame people for wanting to stay on Doc’s for that reason. This also gets into the territory of like the only only part of web three and NFT’s where I feel like a therapist should be doxed, always, in my opinion, is if they’re going to be offering any level of care, I think there has to be something set up for that I have heard there’s some kind of concept you might know more about this, I don’t know a whole lot about it called like zero knowledge proofs or something where you can like, basically have something behind the scenes that allows people’s Doc’s information to be encrypted, so that their identity and location and other things are accessible, if there’s any event that there’s a safety concern, or something like that. So you can tap into that if you need to. But those people, both the clinician and the clients information still stay secure from each other, or that kind of thing. Because otherwise, if you don’t have some mechanism like that, and people end up offering mental health support in this space, and they’re there undocked, that to me is a huge risk and a red flag, in my opinion, because I think any clinician who’s trying to help people should have their identity be out there and should want the identity of the client or the person getting help to be known. Because otherwise, how do you know what their details are? Really? How do you know where they are? How do you know to get them a high level of care? If they’re in a an emergency, or that kind of thing? You know?

Brian Fanzo 46:23
No, I mean, I thank you for sharing that. I think that’s such an important component here. And like for all those that are listening, that are trying to kind of relate to that like feeling. We all know if the word NFT is brought up to any of us that are in this space. The only thing people ask us about for the next two hours are NFT’s and crypto right? Imagine if that is like your day to day and I’ve been very blessed that there are some close friends of mine that I have, like purposely said, hey, when I introducing you, this is how I’m going to introduce you. So that mental health conversation isn’t the only thing that questions are asked, right? Because then it’s like, you know, everything is going to shepherd that way. And I think it is important for us to be very responsible and on a lot of those areas. Right. And I think everyone is human, and we have to have those those different opportunities to participate. The one of the other things I just wanted to kind of address or just kind of tap into and I love for your, your take, you know, you you’re a part of you have a whole practice right of professions. And I’m curious when when you bring up NF Ts to them? What is like their like maybe not even for like the mental health side. But like why, like Jonathan, why are you in this? Like, what is like there are questions or things they’re asking you because I just love to I’m just curious how that kind of conversations happening with your like fellow professionals?

Jotham Busfield 47:31
Yeah, that’s a great question. Because I’ve tried to get like, you know, John, who I do the podcast with and Colin riser and tread with, I’ve tried to get him into NF T’s I would say he’s close, I don’t think he’s against it. He’s definitely loves this landscape. And he, you know, I talked about it quite a bit. So I think he’s heard all the positives that come with it. So I think it’s more of like a he’s got two young kids and like, you know, we run a company. So he’s pretty busy. I think it’s more of a time thing eventually, I think he’ll get in there. I’ve talked to a few other people at the company, I think, you know, I think it’s like my conversations have probably been similar to what you and other people have had with these conversations where you get anywhere from a, you know, an eye roll to, you know, some I mean, I’ve had conversations not with with people in my field, but with other friends who a couple who were actually legitimately like mad that I even brought it up. I mean, like, legit, like, I texted them, like, hey, you know, I’ve really found this experience to be pretty cool. And there’s a lot of these hidden aspects that I don’t think, you know, until you get in here, and you actually experience this culture and these people and this landscape. And it’s just got met with like, get the hell out of here, basically, like I don’t want like, Don’t even say that word to me. Again, I don’t want to hear it. So I’ve had the gamut of those kinds of things. However, I’ve successfully brought quite a few people into this field, I’ve sent people free NF T’s like I’ve done things that I like people I care about, because I’m like, You know what, like, if I can show them the ropes on the stuff that took me forever, like, I am not an intuitive learner in this space, like in the tech space. It’s why I pushed myself to really like try to learn something like you know what, I’m not historically have not been an early adopter of tech changes. I’m not like a cynic. But I’m just like, slow to kind of like, you know, jump in this time, I was like, I’m gonna push myself to really learn about it and try to get into this space. And once I had that knowledge, I was like, Well, why, you know, instead of my friends having to, you know, wait two years, or three years or five years, and reinvent the wheel themselves, when they’re trying to go through this, I can maybe help give them a cheat sheet of things in terms of setting up a meta mask. So I’ve had nice conversations. And it’s a fun experience. When you sit down with someone over a zoom call or in person, you help them set up like Coinbase and you help them set up their meta mask and then you send them an NFT and then it pops up. And you know, sometimes you send them one that hasn’t revealed yet. And that’s its own fun experience. So the conversation that we have gone pretty well, I don’t. This is why I said earlier that mental health conditions are like the last to adopt technological changes. If I could guess like the percentage of mental health professionals who even know what an NF T is or how to acquire one. I think it would be far far lower than any other segment or group you know, within the population. so that I don’t know, I don’t know what the solution to that is, but it’s definitely going to be a barrier. No, I

Brian Fanzo 50:05
think you’re probably right on on that side. And I loved like, you know, I think there is like something about, like, we’ve all kind of been in that area, I actually had somebody that has known me for many, many years. And I got to meet in person. And I know, they’re not listening to the podcast because of their comment. But they were like, Brian, I think a lot less of you now, because you went all in on NF T’s like they said that to my face. And I was like, the interesting part was, they drove many hours to come see me talk on the topic, which was like, You think less of me, but now you’re realizing like, and I want to like, for me, it’s like, whatever their entry point or knowledge of this space was. So I feel bad for them getting that like onboarding, right, like, their impression of it, and it could be them. But it could also be whoever like kind of what we mentioned before, right? There’s been opportunities where maybe some people have had amazing opportunities in like kind of the app based therapy, and it’s changed the life. But there’s also the other side where it could have been bad. And we know that happens on both sides. But sometimes we will just blame the tech or the space, because it’s so much easier to blame, than to change, right or to learn, as you said, and I also say just for our listeners, your community assumption that like you know that you’re an early adopter in your space. And that’s why you’re in here as a professional. And I’m glad that you’ve kind of brought that up that you aren’t, that wasn’t like natural. In your background. I’m curious from your take. I’ve mentioned psychedelics anonymous, a lot on the podcast, it’s, it’s probably one of you actually, it’s definitely in the top three projects that I just like blessed to be a part of the community meetups, I know you’re even organizing, organizing a meet up in person coming soon to share to our audience a little bit about like, what attracted you to the project? And then what do you feel in psychedelics nice, and this isn’t showing or promoting for those that are asking, but like, I, I often feel like it’s important for our audience. If I’m talking about a project that I’m very passionate about, I also think it’s important to hear from others that find value in that same project, because it is a little bit of that like different contexts, like what attracted you. And then what have you seen in psychedelics anonymous that might be unique, that really kind of just kept you interested in that space?

Jotham Busfield 52:09
That’s a great question. Yeah, at first, it’s interesting, like, I’ve also often said in the podcast, because I brought up psychedelics anonymous couple times, and I tried to stipulate that it’s not, it’s not, you know, similar to Alcoholics Anonymous, or you know, Narcotics Anonymous or that kind of thing. But when I first heard about psychedelics anonymous, I didn’t even that’s not the first thing that popped into my head. Like, it wasn’t like, well, what is this a mental health component? I actually was just like, attracted to the art like that’s the first thing that popped off for me and I was in a Ironically, it was in like a Dez. Bryant tweet, I think he like, tweeted out something. I think it was like maybe late December, tweeted out something asking for like feedback. You know, how sometimes people in those positions are like, hey, what NFT project? Should I be in on kind of thing? And, and maybe it’s engagement farming? Or who knows? But like, it seemed like he genuinely wanted to know. And, you know, this is, as you’ve probably seen in a lot of people have seen the psychedelics, anonymous community of holders are pretty active, on Twitter and in comments. So they like to send it on the comments. So I was like, I was scrolling through the comments, because I was just learning about NF T’s in late November, early December. So by the end of December, around Christmas time, I was looking, I was looking on Twitter, and I saw this Dez Bryant tweet, and I’m like, I’ll see what people are posting in the comments, because maybe that I’ll find a project that might want to jump in for the first because I hadn’t bought one yet. And I saw all these you know, these these psychedelics anonymous Genesis kind of PFPs with like the masks and some without masks. And I was like, Man, I just thought it was so awesome, like so badass, like these, excuse my language with the art that I was like, Man, I want to learn about this, like this is really cool. So I started doing I tend to like research probably too much before I jump into things like I owned a ledger before I even bought an NF t. So like, I definitely did like whole measure three times cut once kind of thing. And I started learning about psychedelics anonymous, and it was just like, the more I learned about it, there was just so many things to love. I mean, first it was the art, then it seemed like the team was was really like they had a long term vision, like I heard voltar on a couple spaces. And you just tell by listening to that dude, like he’s, he’s not trying to play some short game, like he’s got a long term vision. And as someone who’s tried, like I’ve built, what we have now Roger, and tread has 10 years of hard work of me working like 80 to 90 hours a week to get to this point. And, you know, we have a vision for Oregon, where we’re going to be in 10 years. So anyone who has a vision to try to do something difficult and help people and solve problems, or create something that’s worthwhile and bigger than them. I respect the hell out of that. And so I saw I heard that in his voice and looking at the roadmap. And so that made me jump in. And then, you know, before you know it, you start to learn about the people in the community. And that’s, that’s what’s really kept me is that like, there’s just so many like good hearted, genuine, authentic people in that community that all support each other, whether it’s on Twitter, or I mean, they like the Twitter spaces they have aren’t officially affiliated with the psychedelics anonymous team, so to speak, but there’s just run by the committee. Maybe they have one every day, on a different topic. You know, they have one on Thursdays, it’s like theory Thursdays about the law behind psychedelics, and on this as a project, they have mental health, or mindfulness Mondays, that’s usually something about whether Mindfulness Based meditation led by mistress venom, who’s someone in that community, or they talked about other mental health topics, and sometimes they talk about NF T’s and other things. So it’s very informal, but also very helpful. Like that balance we talked about earlier, right. So like, it’s two hours straight of mental health talk, it’s like, you know, a guided meditation and a little bit of this, but also like humor, and everyone’s just being themselves and talking about stuff. And so that that’s what’s kept me is that like, the project has a really cool vision. And the people in it are just really awesome. You know, I’ve met like a lot of cool people that I feel like I’m becoming genuine friends with a lot of whom I’ve never met in person, still, but I still feel a connection to, and there are some in person, things happening, you know, like we’re running a Boston event for meetup for that community. NFT NYC is gonna be pretty big. I think they’re having a bunch of psychedelics anonymous events through that whole week. So I’m definitely going to that I’m going to try to attend as many of those as I can, both because I want to support the project and find it really cool. But also because I want to meet some of those people that I’ve gotten to know. And that relates to what you said, I mean, I think the talkspace is in the better helps. I think one thing that’s really cool about that is that it is a lower barrier to entry. It doesn’t cost as much. And more importantly, I do think that the the whether it’s texting or audio only I do think is a much more approachable first step for people, I think you start to see that even in Twitter spaces or other things that it’s easier for people, I think, to open up in those spaces gradually that maybe they would would be able to in person. And those types of not necessarily with like a therapy platform, but in a Twitter spaces. I think that kind of context or that medium, neutralizes a lot of factors that people intentionally or unintentionally use to judge people. I don’t think it’s always a conscious thing. But you think about race, you think about age, you think about ethnicity, that stuff is wiped away when it’s audio only because you don’t know that information. And so you’re not going to judge a person because they’re 17. Like I’ve heard some 16 year olds talk about stuff that blows me away. Like whether it’s technologically or even with mental health, I think we you know, and I think I try to like not let that stuff dictate how I value people or trust what they say anyway. But we’re human, and sometimes it’s unintentional. And so I think when it’s neutralized that can definitely help. So that’s the kind of went off the rails there on that other topic. But the last thing about psychedelics anonymous, I would say is that they’re trying to, at the at the very like base of what they’re doing, they’re trying to help further the research when it comes to use of psychedelic assisted therapy. And there’s two things that I think you know, how we talked about earlier, like, this is not, you know, a web three, something web three console, what three can amplify tech can amplify something that humans solve, I think there are two things that I think that are going to lead to like the best changes when it comes to collective mental health. One is the use of psychedelics in psychedelic assisted therapy, because I think you can help with a lot of difficult situations where people have treatment resistant conditions like depression, or PTSD or things like that. And the other is like advances in brain research, I think like, there’s a lot of stuff that I think is going to happen in the next five to 10 years, in terms of them mapping the brain or mapping the mind, similar to how they map the DNA sequence of, you know, years ago, this is something where I think that’s going to continue. And so anytime I see an NFC project that’s going to support one or both of those two things, I’m all in because I think that’s what’s going to push the research where it needs to go so that we can have the most the most improvements in terms of access to care and also treatment outcomes.

Brian Fanzo 58:30
I love that both of that I’ve actually had the opportunity to actually experience both on both sides, I went to the Brain Training Center in Atlanta and it was a very eye opening experience for me sitting through that myself even having the device on my head and going through a lot of the the best practices to learn how my brain worked. And I didn’t actually go forward to the the next step but it because it gave me so much actually. It actually gave me a little bit of freedom to freedom to better understand like even just at a high level some of the things like the way I like why am I so emotional about things that others are not emotional and, and like some of those things and and so I love that you brought that in I also love your look to me, like you know, even your entry point into PA like I actually knew Victoria before he ever had a name of the project, he actually reached out to me and it’s like hey, would you be interested in a project that was doing this and the name he gave me was so completely different than psychedelic synonymous of what he thought the project might become? And I remember just being interested that he was he was asking me for like my input and help it wasn’t like how can I like use you as like a social advocate or retweet or he was like literally and I was like, I like you like I like you that you’d like that was your approach and and I was a fan that kind of ever since was kind of a beautiful entry point. So you know Jonathan, thank you so much for all that you’ve shared here I you know, I’m gonna put your your podcast links to the things that you have in the show notes as well. You know, I guess for your as we kind of wrap it, you know, from a standpoint of, you know, things that you’re most excited about like, personally and kind of in this area, where do you see like if people that are listening to this, maybe they want, they want more, they want to take a step forward more or even, they’re like, you know, we all know we’re all looking for like use cases that kind of help. What’s something you could leave the audience with kind of like a thought or like an idea that maybe gets us kind of going forward as we kind of leave this this episode?

Jotham Busfield 1:00:23
In terms of like, NFT projects in terms of like the mental health NFT overlap? And

Brian Fanzo 1:00:28
either way, whichever one you whichever one you prefer?

Jotham Busfield 1:00:31
Yeah, it’s interesting. So, I mean, I think I would go in the direction of like, looking for a project that is able to blend in some indirect, I wouldn’t call like indirect play to earn. But I think like, if there’s a way to harness the fact that people, when they know, they’re not earning things, they’re not doing it to earn money, they’re not doing it to earn a return or that kind of thing. They’re helping people because they enjoy helping others. And there is, I’m a firm believer that like, there’s no such thing as a selfless act. Because I think like when you try to help people, like you might, some people convince themselves are doing that, because they’re selfless, but it’s the biggest benefit you can have personally is to help other people, right? Especially because it’s theirs, it’s good to try to work on yourself, this is one thing I think I would leave listeners with, it’s very good to try to work on yourself, right? Self improvement is key. Self awareness is so key. I know, I’ve heard you talk about that. That was one of the things that really like drew me to your podcast and your community was that you hit the nail on the head with self awareness being something that’s often lacking in people and so key to their happiness and well being and success, self awareness and working on yourself is very key, right? But it’s got to limit if that if your whole life day to day becomes this grind of self improvement, you’re gonna end up pretty unhappy. So I think it’s good to do it to a degree, it’s also good to take some focus off yourself and try to you know, help other people and be there for other people, because it will help uplift you to whether you want it to or not.

Brian Fanzo 1:01:54
Oh, I love that answer. Because you’re you’re right, we, we have a tendency to over click right, like we would you know, self awareness, and then all of a sudden, all we’re doing is self awareness, self improvement, self help, and you like, get down this rabbit hole, or even like, you know, from a consumption perspective, right? Like, there has to be like a balance of consumption and creation, or you just become the person that is learning always and not doing anything, anything with it, which is no better than someone who doesn’t learn anything. It doesn’t consume anything. So I’m so glad you made that comment, like a touch point. And, you know, I think for our audience to like one of the things that I hope that you kind of get from this conversation, but also a lot of our interviews here on the podcast is like, you know, perspective is a beautiful thing, right. And I just love for me, that’s like, that’s part of what I’ve found, to be kind of like a secret weapon is I don’t have to be an expert in what I’m sharing, I’m going to share something that I know no one else can share. And that is my own unique perspective to what I’m experiencing to the things that I’m about. And that’s also why I love to bring in those that have a perspective that is either unlike mine or can come at a different way. And so for those that are, you know, that are listening, and you might be struggling to find your way or getting started, just remember that piece of it right that it is about our own perspective on things that we’re experiencing, no one’s walked in your exact shoes, that got to where you’re at. And oftentimes, that’s usually what people are like, Well, I have to wait till I’m an expert. And I was that person in the mental health conversation. Like, I remember removing myself from multiple conversations, because I didn’t feel like I had the letters after my name or the other degrees. And then I realized, wait a second, like my perspective has a place here. And it not only has a place but it’s needed is going to unlock doors, open up doors, and in a way, we become like the greatest advocates and, and really, you’re branching out so much of what the professionals that are doing and and I’m just thankful to have professionals like yourself Jotham in my life, that that can encourage me that I can learn from, but also feel like they’re willing to work with me. Right. And I will say like, that is the beauty. If I had to say anything about web three, you know, whenever my wallet was compromised, the the amount of outpouring love still were 20 Couple 22 days out since my wallet was compromised. The love support empathy has just been something that I couldn’t, I couldn’t even imagine like, even as someone that like loves this space until you experience it and continue to experience it. It is something that, you know, it makes me even more bullish in the weirdest of ways compromising my wallet and losing what it actually made me more bullish because of the amazing humans that are here to support and, and put that out there. But I also know if I wasn’t sharing my perspective and putting my myself out there throughout this whole time, I wouldn’t have even given people the opportunity to do that. So I think there’s a there’s a beautiful kind of synergy here a beautiful lessons. So make sure you check out Jonathan’s podcast also. I’ll put links to Twitter. Great follow on Twitter. We’re gonna be hanging out in New York City, that’s for sure. And I might be able to make it up to Boston that’s on my own. My radar as well. So for everyone that’s listening as always, thank you so much for tuning in. We are super powered by the ADHD coin over on rally. If you just go to ADHD You can see the coin there, sign up for a free account and jump over to our Discord. Love to hear your thoughts on the podcast or your take on the episode. And as always reach out to us on Twitter on social media. That’s where we’re at moving forward. So until tomorrow, my friends, make it a great day. Cheers.

Kevin Sturmer 1:05:28
This show is not financial advice, so do your own damn research.